Self Air-Drying Versus Kiln-Drying Carefully air-drying wood yourself may be preferable to trusting the load to a less-than-perfect kiln-drying operation. January 18, 2011
Warp in Drying Causes and cures for warpage when drying lumber. May 4, 2001
Kiln Drying Large Timbers An extended discussion of the technical issues involved in drying big beams for various uses. July 28, 2006
Drying rough-sawn timbers A large outdoor project raises questions about drying large, rough-sawn timbers for long-term use. June 20, 2000
Drying Ash Flooring Kiln-drying is essential to kill bugs and achieve the proper low moisture content for stability in service. May 11, 2005
Acid Condensation Issues with Drying Kilns This discussion of drying Oak for iron-and-wood furniture purposes takes an interesting detour into a discussion of acidic conditions in wood and kilns. October 15, 2010
Twisted timbers Determining the cause of twisting in Douglas fir construction timbers. August 10, 2000
Temperature, Humidity, and Drying Some generic head-scratching over relative humidity and the heat required to dry wood under various conditions. April 10, 2007
Causes and cures for sticker stain The Wood Doctor weighs in with comprehensive information about the causes and prevention of sticker stain. 1998.
Checking Concerns with Massive Wood Posts A custom home project calls for 15-inch-wide solid timber posts. Here's a discussion of the inevitable checking that will occur, and how to minimize it. November 13, 2005
Drying with Moderate Heat Here's info on how various types of wood will respond to conditions in a home-built drying room that doesn't get much warmer than 120°F. There's a useful lecture here on how case-hardening occurs. May 16, 2008
Ambient Humidity and Wood Moisture Content A problem of wood warping in a dry basement storage area leads to a discussion of temperature, relative humidity, and wood moisture. July 10, 2007
Using a Corn Drier as a Kiln Lumber drying is a controlled process, that an agricultural corn dryer probably cannot accomplish correctly. February 15, 2009
Automatic vents for solar kiln Can vents be left open at night or must they be controlled? (Sawing and Drying Forum) April 29, 2003
Spalting Tips and Tricks A question about how to get rid of a bad batch of spalted Maple leads to a nice discussion of different ways to spalt wood, with photos. April 15, 2012
Cupping, Bowing KD VG WR Cedar? More fun with wood moisture: Figuring out why some supposedly kiln-dried cedar boards cupped and bowed after being resawn and planed. January 26, 2008
Air-Drying and Kiln-Drying 8/4 Oak Experts and kiln owners discuss the proper drying schedule and the best equipment for drying thick Red Oak boards. August 13, 2014
Is it Worth Kiln-Drying Firewood? Considering the cost of kiln construction and energy inputs versus the value of extra-dry firewood, it's hard to see how the dollars make sense. January 27, 2008
Air-drying oak Can a suitable MC for cabinet construction be reached? February 6, 2002
Green barn siding Making board and batten siding from freshly sawn lumber. June 19, 2003
Drying wood in a tent Recommendations on how to use the sun's rays and a plastic tent to dry lumber. November 7, 2001
Drying Oak Lumber: Step 4A, Air Drying Flat, solid support, maintaining an optimal air flow, and protecting the pile from re-wetting by rain are the keys to quality results when air-drying sawn lumber. August 27, 2012
Sawing and Drying Sweet Gum Sweet Gum is a troublesome wood to work with because of its tendency to twist and move, but the effort can be worth it for some uses. February 14, 2010
Sawing Walnut: Sapwood and Heartwood Here's a discussion about the proportions of heartwood and sapwood in a Walnut log, drying methods, and the value of both for furniture, bowls, et cetera. May 15, 2012
Why is Walnut Purple Sometimes? The purple color of some Walnut boards is natural. Here's more background with comments and observations from woodworkers. February 16, 2014
Case Hardening Explained A semi-technical discussion about how the wood drying process can create stresses between interior and surface wood layers — and about how to reduce or prevent that situation. January 19, 2012
Sawing and Drying Tips for Pecan Orchard-grown pecan wood warps badly when drying. Here is advice on how to cut and dry pecan in order to minimize warping and improve quality. July 28, 2006
Hairline Cracks in Kiln-Drying Cherry Checking in Cherry appears as a fine crack, and is the result of too-fast air-drying, not kiln-drying. April 15, 2012
Stickers and sticker shadow A discussion on synthetic and traditional stickers, and an explanation of reverse sticker shadow. May 30, 2001
Double-Checking Moisture Content You can check your moisture meter by drying wood samples and weighing them, but the method has its own uncertainties and imprecisions. August 29, 2006
Drying Lodgepole Pine in Colorado Detailed advice on air-drying and kiln-drying lodgepole pine (some logged green and some killed by beetles). April 21, 2008
Slowing Down Wood Drying Once wood starts to dry, it's hard to slow the process down without encountering staining or rot problems. December 6, 2009
Sawing and Drying Sycamore Sycamore is attractive and useful, but moves drastically while drying. Here's good advice on how to minimize movement and make the most of each board. June 27, 2006
The Dimensional Effects of Wood Moisture Understanding how moisture interacts with wood can help you avoid problems from moisture-related wood movement. September 13, 2012
Fresh-Cut Pine for Rafters In theory, green softwood should perform acceptably for barn rafters. In practice, on the other hand ... well, life is full of surprises. November 28, 2006
Dead Standing Douglas Fir: Is It Dry Already? A discussion about the useability of wood from dead standing tree logs without further drying, and a little bit of kiln-related history. April 27, 2007
Controlling Mildew in Air-Drying Lumber Surface mildew in a stack of boards being air-dried should respond to some dehumidification in the space. April 15, 2012
Mesquite Lore Texas woodworkers share their knowledge of Mesquite wood. August 21, 2006
Air-Drying Persimmon Persimmon has value, but it moves a lot as it dries. April 30, 2006
Furniture from Air-Dried Red Oak If "air drying" is understood to include drying to equilibrium in a conditioned indoor space, then the result can be useable wood. May 27, 2008
Shrinkage of Pressure-Treated Lumber It's delivered sopping wet, with moisture forced in under pressure. So how much does it shrink? Experts clarify the situation. July 12, 2005
Intentional Spalting Can you treat logs with fungus and humidity to create spalting on purpose? Some say "yes," but it's more art than science. June 23, 2005
Checking in Oak A discussion of kiln conditions and other factors that can cause Oak to check while drying. October 29, 2008
Drying Thick Slabs Thoughts on managing cracking in thick slabs during drying. December 6, 2009
Moisture Testing Variability A discussion of factors that could account for a discrepancy between a supplier's wood moisture content readings and the customer's. October 12, 2008
Elevated Moisture Readings after Planing Wood that is not uniformly dry will read higher after planing; and the results vary between pin meters and pinless models. June 4, 2012
Reconditioning of Collapsed/Washboard Timber Collapse of sawn lumber during drying is a rare event. Steaming may help prevent the problem, and to some extent cure it. January 12, 2015
How to Stack and Dry Large Beams Advice on stacking, stickering, and banding large-dimension Oak timbers for air drying. January 18, 2012
Lumber Conditioning Advice Info on mixed loads, re-wetting dried lumber, and related topics. September 25, 2014
Firewood kiln Methods and facilities used to dry firewood. November 26, 2001
Treating Air-Dried Wood with Pesticides Surface-applied pesticides may be dangerous or even illegal, and will probably do no good. Instead, heat-treat wood to kill bugs. February 14, 2006
Managing Airflow in the Pre-Dryer Advice on using temporary baffles to keep air flowing through the remaining stacks as some wood is removed. June 13, 2014
Lowering Wood Moisture Content A woodworker has some lumber at 12% moisture content that he wants to dry down to 9%. Here are some quick and cheap ways to accomplish that. October 19, 2013
Comparing moisture meters An assessment of the performance of pin and pinless moisture meters made by major manufacturers. July 11, 2000
Drying Oregon Madrone Pacific Madrone is prone to drying movement, but that can make it interesting to woodworkers. May 13, 2009
Drying Split Logs How you dry split smallwood could depend on your intended use for it — in furniture, for archery bows, or whatever. October 3, 2009
Time to Air-Dry Thick Lumber Many variables affect drying time. Here's a discussion about the typical drying-time window. November 16, 2011
End Checking and Sticker Placement Placing stickers very close to the ends of the lumber stack can help limit end checking. This thread also offers additional tips on preventing checking. November 16, 2010
Checking Moisture and Achieving MC Targets Higher moisture near the core has a lumber dryer doubting his moisture meter, but drying conditions are the more likely concern. September 6, 2010
Stain in Maple -- Prevention and Cure An explanation of why maple wood stains, ways to slow the process down, and how to bleach stains out. July 28, 2006
Air Flow and Mold Problems Troubleshooting an occurrence of mold in wood stacked for air-drying. March 26, 2013
Selecting a Moisture Meter A discussion of desirable attributes for a moisture meter used for kiln-drying quality control. June 30, 2007
Diagnosing a Beetle Infestation The Wood Doctor discusses the risk indicated by insect exit holes appearing in wood recently brought indoors. April 30, 2009
Drying Mesquite with Denatured Alcohol Denatured alcohol (DNA) drying techniques work best on porous wood, not so well on a low-porosity species like Mesquite. October 1, 2010
Dry Kiln Information Resources A list of clubs, organizations, books and publications providing information about drying lumber for use in woodworking. 1998.
Drying Time for 6/4 Red Oak Here's a quick technical look at the factors affecting kiln drying 6/4 Red Oak, including kiln type and initial moisture content. Air drying may be more cost-effective. July 16, 2012
Drying Black Walnut Thoughts on drying the lumber from some Black Walnut yard trees. December 6, 2009
Determining MC by weight Tools and techniques for measuring moisture content by weighing lumber cuttings. January 4, 2001
Drying Willow in a Solar Kiln Challenging scenario: a tricky wood to dry and a difficult kiln to control. February 14, 2010
Storing Maple in Partially Dried Condition A woodworker gets advice on the feasibility of maintaining wood at 25% moisture content for use in drying operations. January 8, 2010
Limits of Air Drying Even in the driest parts of the U.S., air-dried lumber typically won't get below about 10% moisture content. March 10, 2008
Charging for Stickers Stickers, like anything else, have a value and a price. October 25, 2006
Showing Off Sycamore Sawing and drying pros show photos of sycamore (quartersawn, spalted, and clean-shaven). February 14, 2006
Value and Uses of Eastern Red Cedar The sawing and drying forum kicks around the question of tailoring red cedar products to meet market demand. February 14, 2006
Sawing An Old Elm Tree Tension wood from growth stress may call for a modified technique. April 10, 2005
Lindane Information on Lindane, a pesticide used to control powderpost beetles. June 21, 2000
Stickering and Drying Large Timbers Large-dimension timbers for framing should be handled correctly to minimize bowing and checking. June 23, 2005
Using a Green Timber as a Girder Issues to be aware of when using green or partially-green softwood timbers as structural beams. November 28, 2006
Drying Cherry in the Basement Even for a brief storage period, a basement is a dubious place for stacked, stickered wood. January 14, 2009
20 Steps to Drying Hard White Maple The Wood Doctor's 100 percent guaranteed, sure-fire, no-snake-oil method for successfully drying hard white maple. 1998.
Challenges of Drying Eucalyptus Many ways have been tried to prevent Eucalyptus wood's tendency to warp and check, but none have proven to be highly successful. February 29, 2012
Maple Color and Drying Conditions Maple can turn gray as it dries. If you want white wood, you have to carefully control the kiln conditions. July 30, 2007
Growth Stress End Checking Log characteristics can cause checks to open up, even when ends are coated and drying conditions are correct. February 19, 2006
Drying Wood in the Attic The attic is a handy place to dry small quantities of lumber. Here are some tips and cautions. September 10, 2007
Stickering and Spacing No need to space boards when air-drying small batches. February 26, 2005
Kiln Drying Color Change Experts and sawyers discuss the various reasons wood from the same batch might end up with slightly different colors. September 6, 2010
Drying Siberian Elm Slabs Prone to warpage and bug damage, Siberian Elm is tricky wood to dry. March 31, 2008
Definition of Primary Process Locating the dividing line between primary and secondary processing of wood products. September 5, 2011
Drying Walnut Boards Tips on handling, and how to dimension for best value. February 26, 2005
Minimizing Sticker Stain An explanation of what causes sticker stain, and how it might be prevented. July 30, 2007
Uses for Black Gum Lumber Sawyers discuss how to handle Black Gum wood, and what you can make with it. June 30, 2009
Safe Time for Tight Stacking How long can you safely "dead stack" wood without air spaces before stickering the pile? February 27, 2013
Stacking and Drying Southern Yellow Pine A sawyer gets advice on stacking and stickering Southern Yellow Pine, and on protecting it against insects. January 25, 2010
Cutting Stickers Basic info on making stickers for your drying pile. November 28, 2014
Mold on Southern Pine The wood doctor explains why Southern Pine supposedly dried to 18% moisture content would still support mold after being stacked inside a dried-in house under construction. January 25, 2013
Ring Shake in Hemlock Hemlock makes good boards or framing lumber, but wood from trees exposed to grazing animals may be have structural flaws. July 12, 2005
Drying Holly Holly wood is prized for its white color, but it stains easily during drying. October 1, 2010
Mahogany Honeycombing Defect Honeycombing that appears after planing is typically a drying defect — similar to end checking, but different. April 17, 2009
Air-Drying Thick Maple Four-inch-thick maple slabs are likely to degrade a lot during air-drying. Here are a few tips for better results. July 13, 2006
Drying Eastern Red Cedar Eastern Red Cedar dries readily with simple air drying, and behaves well when exposed to variations in ambient humidity. April 20, 2011
Cypress board and batten siding It's better to kiln dry that cypress before siding your house with it than to let air-drying suffice. 1998.
Kiln drying Mexican oak Mexican oak can be dried using the same schedules as those used by processors in the United States. 1998.
Is This Stack of Cherry Ruined? A newbie mistake left this stack of Cherry wood soaked after a year in the stack. But there's a chance it could still be saved. October 26, 2007
Test for Honeycomb A method for testing dried lumber to detect honeycomb, with advice on how to prevent the checking that leads to honeycomb. June 13, 2014
"Worm tunnels" or fungal growth? Strange growths on freshly sawn lumber turn out to be "fungal hyphae," not a tunnel made by worms or insects.June 4, 2012
Lumber Handling in Sawmill Operations Stacking and re-stacking lumber takes its toll on your time and your back. In this thread, sawmillers talk about smarter ways to handle lumber. October 20, 2005
Setting the pitch The why and how of setting the pitch in heart pine. October 15, 2001
Drying Softwoods If the product is structural lumber rather than appearance-grade wood, just dry the stuff as fast as your equipment can. January 27, 2007
Log Drying and Degrade Don't wait to long to saw ... but don't be too quick to write off an old log either. faOctober 4, 2011
Warping, Moisture, and Wood Shape Memory Will a piece of wood that was restrained to prevent warping during drying warp later, while in use? Only if the moisture in its environment varies. October 30, 2005
Twisting lumber What causes lumber to twist in a dehumidification kiln? March 20, 2001
Cures for sticker stain Drying lumber can suffer from sticker stain for a variety of reasons. June 20, 2000
Using Green Stickers Dry stickers are better, but green could be okay for stacking boards for barn siding. March 28, 2012
Moisture content of walnut -- and measuring it A woodworker seeks information about acceptable moisture contents for walnut used in furniture, and wonders what makes moisture meters tick. 1998.
Dipping Lumber Before Stickering A brief description of dipping lumber in fungicide and insecticide for short-term dead stacking before stickering to air dry. March 28, 2012
Characteristics of European Larch Naturally durable with decay-resistant heartwood, Larch would make good decking or siding. April 21, 2011
Drying Logs for Cabin Construction Advice on drying logs for cabin building, including how long to expect air drying to take and how hot to heat logs to set the pitch. October 19, 2014
Thinner Sticks in the Lumber Drying Pile Reducing the thickness of spacer sticks in the lumber stack could reduce the drying effectiveness of the system and create quality issues. October 19, 2014
Greenwood Mantels Sawn, sealed, and installed when green, a large-dimension timber mantel should perform well. October 25, 2006
Tulip (Yellow Poplar) Color Fade A large slab of Tulip, freshly sawn, shows some striking and dramatic coloration. But what will happen over time? October 26, 2011
OSB for Stickers? Some advise against using wood composite materials for stickers. January 8, 2010
Air-Drying Lumber for Sheds Drying time is not critical for lumber intended for an exposed use like a utility shed. December 9, 2010
Solar Drying Basics (PDF) Illustrated article from the West Virginia University Extension Serivce on solar drying and kilns, in PDF format. June 19, 2003
Moisture-Meter Accuracy for Veneer Moisture meters will read a single leaf of wood veneer differently than a thick stack of it. January 11, 2007
Drying hackberry Drying hackberry is easy, provided you move quickly. June 5, 2001
Blue-Stained Pine Pros and Cons Controversy simmers over whether blue stain is is a special value, a visual defect, or a mold liability risk. September 17, 2008
Blue Stain in Red Oak A discussion of staining, drying odor, and related problems in a large oak tree blown down by wind. December 12, 2008
Bowing in Pine Staves After Planing Here's a good explanation of why lumber may move after being planed — and why that is not easy to correct. January 20, 2010
Pitch Build-Up When Planing Air-Dried Pine There's no way to stop Pine pitch from gumming up machinery, short of kiln-drying the lumber. (This thread has some interesting asides about using your own sawn wood for construction.) April 27, 2011
Borates for Protecting Oak Beams Borate treatments can provide good protection against insects for softwood that is kept dry, but has limited usefulness on hardwood, especially if exposed to rain. January 14, 2008
Properly Drying Oak for Use in a Porch Swing Thoughts on air drying, kiln drying, and conditioning for oak intended to be used in outdoor versus indoor conditions. January 11, 2007
Heat Up Rate in Lumber Drying Most wood-drying situations don't require careful control of the rate at which the load heats up. June 13, 2014
How to Prevent Drying Stress A quick explanation from the Wood Doctor of what causes drying stress, and how to prevent or reduce it. August 15, 2011
Black Locust as a Utility Pole Thoughts on whether to dry a Black Locust pole before burying the end, and related issues. March 28, 2010
Holly Staining: Fungus or Pigment? Holly stains if it's not dried quickly and properly. But what's the real cause? A scientist weighs in on samples collected by a sawyer. July 12, 2005
Promoting blue stain How to promote this visual effect in a stack of red pine. March 21, 2002
How did our forebears dry lumber? How lumber was dried for furniture construction prior to the introduction of kiln drying. November 21, 2000
Preventing Mold Formation on Freshly Sawn Pine Surface dryness is the best answer to preventing mold from getting a foothold on sawn softwood. Here are tips on how to achieve it. April 18, 2010
Beetle Troubles Tips on dealing with lyctid (powderpost) beetles and the less troublesome anobiid beetle. April 27, 2007
Stabilizing Wood with Polyethylene Glycol Advice and explanations about using PEG to prevent shrinkage and cracking in heavy wood disks being dried for a specialty application. July 15, 2014
Drying Eucalyptus Eucalyptus is a fussy wood to air-dry or kiln-dry. Here are some clues about its character. October 14, 2006
Solar Kiln Designs Compared Thoughts on roof angle, dimensions, and other considerations for solar drying kiln construction. January 8, 2010
Sawdust on stacked wood Should sawdust be cleaned off before stacking and drying? October 15, 2001
Dealing with Blade-Diving Waves More blade tension, better blade lubrication, and a sharpening modification may help keep bandsaw blades from wandering when cutting larger logs. December 1, 2005
Sweetgum Character If you saw much Sweetgum, you'll find that the lumber has a strong personality. November 27, 2007
Should I Season Timbers Before Framing a Barn? Timber-framing works well with green or partially dried timbers, but you should allow for some drying-related movement after construction. May 9, 2007
Air-Drying Very Thin Boards A discussion of how to sticker and dry 1/8-inch and 1/4-inch green wood. December 31, 2005
Drying a Large Butcher Block There are ways to dry a large one-piece block without checks developing. October 20, 2005
Attic Lumber Drying Tips on drying small quantities of wood in a warm attic. January 28, 2014
Sticker Thickness and Sources For good air circulation, stickers need to be at least 3/4 inches thick. Here are ideas on where to get them. October 25, 2006
Salt pastes and PEG Polyethylene glycol is high-priced, but the alternatives for stabilizing green wood are few. 1998.
Drying Bowl Blanks One woodturner reports success with an alcohol pre-soak method. January 13, 2006
Drying Rounds Advice on dealing with the inevitable cracking in a round slice of a log as it dries. May 21, 2009
Blue Stain in Pine How big a concern is blue surface stain on softwood? June 12, 2006
Removing Urine Odor from Stored Lumber Can the smell of rat urine be removed from stored rough lumber before milling it? Here are some suggested remedies. October 8, 2005
Drying Cedar Siding Fresh cedar boards need only a quick air drying for exterior use. October 30, 2005
Seasoning a Large Hardwood Slab A premium slab is a treasure, but drying it properly requires patience — and nothing will stop it from moving as it dries. April 30, 2006
Drying Capitol Christmas Tree Slabs Despite several interesting suggestions, Woodweb fails to provide a secret formula for drying cross-sections of a pine tree trunk with no radial checking. Still a fun thread, though. August 16, 2012
Aging yellow cedar Attaining the look of naturally aged yellow cedar. September 2, 2002
Eradicating an Insect Infestation A load of insect-infested reclaimed wood may have contaminated a whole operation. What to do? April 20, 2011
Ripping and Re-Gluing to Limit Cupping The Wood Doc weighs in on the old-timer technique of ripping and re-gluing boards in order to lessen moisture-related cupping. February 19, 2008
Regaining MC in overdry wood Is machinability lost when lumber has been overdried, then had moisture put back in? May 17, 2003
Choosing a Moisture Meter A well-informed discussion comparing the cost and characteristics of various pin and pinless moisture meters. October 11, 2012
Re-Drying Kiln Dried Lumber An architectural woodwork mill gets advice on acclimating stock before machining it. December 9, 2010
Storing Wood in a Subtropical Climate Thoughts on how to keep air-dried lumber sawn on site from decaying while stored for a season or two — in Nicaragua June 22, 2012
"Shop-Dried" Versus "Air-Dried" Lumber A discussion of the quality and value of hardwoods that have been stacked and dried in a dry indoor area, but not in a kiln. March 26, 2013
Shop-Drying Eucalyptus Thoughts on how to dry and condition Eucalyptus for use in a table top. December 31, 2012
Minimum Sticker Thickness How thin can stickers be in order to maximize kiln capacity without creating drying problems? May 11, 2005
Long-Term Storage of Air-Dried Lumber Air-dried lumber left in drying stacks for long periods without kiln-drying is at high risk for insect damage and spoilage. June 18, 2010
Moisture Content of Western Red Cedar A stable wood that is typically serves exterior uses, Western Red Cedar is usually delivered at about 12% moisture content. But you can find it drier than that. July 28, 2006
Air-Dried Wood for Furniture As this example demonstrates, when a people tell you your air-dried lumber won't make a sweet (and sweet-smelling) piece of furniture, sometimes it's because they want to take your wood away for free. January 11, 2007
Will Ocean Shipping Damage Teak? A sawmiller worries that a load of teak he has ordered from a South American supplier may suffer mold damage en route. The feedback indicates he should relax. December 1, 2005
Controlling Checking in a Walnut Mantel A carefully located plunge cut in the hidden side of a large sawn member may restrict checking to that location. April 18, 2010
Protecting Fresh Wood from Bugs Chemical means have drawbacks and are not very effective. So good drying and careful hygeine in the the yard are your best methods for keeping wood bug-free. April 20, 2011
Pith Centering in Cabin "D" Logs A sawyer wonders how best to avoid distortion as he produces wall logs for a cabin project. February 26, 2005
Pink Stain in White Ash Pink fungal staining is tough to bleach out, and may be allergenic. March 9, 2010
Finish Over Air-Dried Pine Soft resin and volatile natural solvents in softwoods will interfere with finishes unless the wood is kiln-dried at a high enough temperature to "set the pitch."August 17, 2009
End Joint Splitting in Table Glue-Ups Here's a long troubleshooting discussion about splits that form at the end joints between boards in a round table top. August 29, 2014
Air-Drying Big Timbers Over Long Time If you plan to air-dry posts and beams for a period of years, here's advice on stickering, sawing over-size, end-sealing, et cetera. October 26, 2011
Ash, Pine, Bugs, and Borates More info on the insects that may infest hardwoods and softwoods, and on the use of borate-based controls. December 6, 2009
Drying a Walnut Slab This thread about how to slowly air-dry a Walnut slab has some beautiful photos of a Walnut slab table. August 16, 2012
Managing Fungus on Cedar Advice on handling and cleaning a Cedar slab that wasn't properly dried and now harbors fungus. October 19, 2014
Moisture content for exterior doors Determining the appropriate MC for lumber that will be exposed to vastly different humidity levels. November 14, 2001