Message Thread:
Color Matching with a limited selection stains and dyes
12/13/24
Hello I'm a expat cabinet maker now living in New Zealand. It's a long subject the short version is, there is a very limited selection of finishing coloring dyes and stains here in little New Zealand. What is available is generally water based. I have been asked by some customers that I've built new pieces for to refinish some of their older pieces. Almost all are family heirloom quality, (mostly sentimental value) usually from Europe and the States, constructed from Maple, Birch, Cherry, Mahogany and Oak (what I've run into so far). Lots of loose joints, water stained tops, bleached color, scrapes, scratches, and wrinkled finishes. I'm a cabinet maker as I stated so the repairs I have been able to manage. My finishing skills are limited though My go to top coat is a local version of pre-cat lacquer (that is very forgiving) and shellac seal coats that I mix myself. The problem is finding dyes and stains other than the limited number of water based colors available by a prominent NZ manufacturer Resene. I have brought over some powered Keda dye stains. The kit included 5 colors blk, brown, blue, red and yellow. I have a pretty good understanding of the color wheel but a better understanding and sense of earth tone pigment colors, sienna, ocher etc. I'm wondering other than experimenting every time if there is a way to translate earthtone colors into a color wheel formulation. (not sure if this is a clear question sorry) In other words using some combination of Keda dyes to mimic earth tones. Hope this makes sense? For a reference I've included a photo of the last job a quilted maple dresser circa 1890s (?) that needed re-gluing and refinishing Thanks in advance for any help you want to offer.
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12/13/24 #2: Color Matching with a limited selec ...
No shortcuts to being good with color. Either you are good with it, or you're not. Find a good artist and take some lessons. Take lots of notes, keep a book or records, and practice practice practice!
12/14/24 #4: Color Matching with a limited selec ...
First off let me say that's a nice finish on the chest..✓✓✓
Secondly, most all the earth or permanent colors can be had at any local Artist supply store.! If by chance there are none there, you can order them here in the USA and most likely England or other countries, but I hope u have at least one there. What you'll need is oil base pigments in large tubes or quarts if they have or can get them. What has given me excellent results, as to pigment stains, is the ( SOHO URBAN ARTIST OIL COLORS) Ground in purified linseed oil..!! Though I am not sure they ship world wide or not.🤔😕
For an all around pallet you need to get Burnt Umber, raw umber, Van Dyke brown, Burnt Sienna, Raw sienna, lemon yellow, orange,
A bright red and dark red, yellow ochre, and a few blues and greens as well as Black...preferably Carbon black. And p thank blue and green will act somewhat like dyes if thinned out enough.!! You can skip any colors you don't think you will ever use, if there is no call for blues or greens etc..
If you can't find this brand feel free to get a similar product just make sure its cheap and consistent from batch to batch, there is no need whatsoever to buy expensive oil colors, the ones I used are called beginners colors, or learning colors, and sold to newbee's who are just starting to learn to paint, they dry faster than high end colors by far and make excellent stain dyes for wood. They are pigment heavy and can easily be thinned out with naptha, mineral spirits ( white spirits).... To lighten or make less opaque pigment stains.!!
You can and should make your own color wheel, it is the best way for someone in your position to learn. Get your pigments make up a 50/50 stain with the color and reducer, apply to the woods you will be using mostly..( you can always make other wheels as needed for other woods), then, going forward from that point make thinner and heavier stains as needed.! Next will be mixing.!!
With the wheel ( or even flat boards) you can start comparing the single pigment boards to what color you or your clients are looking for and interested in, ...example : say you have your Burnt umber stain at 50% concentration, and the customer or you want to lighten the cor, then thin it out, if that want it more brown or red or orange or yellow, than add a measured ( ALWAYS MEASURE)
among bit by bit of the color that will give the necessary color shift desired. This is the part that takes the longest to perfect, as the colors will vary from every piece of wood you apply it to, even of the same species..!! And why most say is the hardest part to learn with a never ending variance of natural color shift from board to board or veneer to veneer, because not only does the color shift, but the absorption of the color and layer of color on the surface diverge from slight to quite a bit..!!
But have faith, in time and patience you can be come a quality color man.!!
Hope this helps
Chemmy, retired professional colorist, and 3rd generation finisher refinisher.
12/14/24 #5: Color Matching with a limited selec ...
Chemmy thanks for the detailed plan very generous indeed and now I don't have to enroll in a college course,,,ha.
Question back to you. You are describing how I understand and have worked with Oil pigment stains. Not as detailed or as methodical a process as you describe but I do have some experience with oil pigment stains. The reason I was interested in dye stains is that over here isn't the wide availability of products as in the States or Europe, and the laws governing VOCs are more strict so what is offered is predominantly water based. I can import powered dye stains more cost effectively than another product. With that in mind after reading the method you so kindly outlined I assume that I could take the same approach with aniline dyes. Do you have any advise about this process using dye stains?
12/14/24 #6: Color Matching with a limited selec ...
Thanks for letting me know about the situation there, as to VOC restraints, sounds like here in California..!!
As to dyes, their very similar to dyes as far as color goes, the big differences are that none of them are light fast (aka) fade resistant, which is especially true of the reds, blues, and yellows, but none of them are permanent. Which means that the color of which is applied will change color over time, and as that happens those colors that are most prone to fading will virtually disappear leaving the other more light fast colors the only color that is left to be seen. This is much more true when "Staining" the wood, as to actually dyeing the wood, which is the old methods used on veneers, much more than thicker wood, which is done under high pressure by a few veneer companies.!
Dyes also give incredible depth and clarity, and I used them mainly for this reason, despite the fact that they are not fade proof.! Though they do give this effect, they only do so when applied to the bare wood/veneer themselves, if used as toners and or especially shading coats, especially individual colors, for example, toning or shading over an already sealed in previously dyed medium walnut stained and sealed, that you or your client finds to be not quite orange or yellow enough, or not quite as brown or or darker brown being what is desired, and then toning over the sealer and declaring with another clear coat, produces an unwanted affect I call or deem to be abstract filtering, much like what happens when you use photography color filters, stacking one color on top of the other which, since the colors are separate and not mixed together, the top filter will be the dominate color, which will be seen especially in natural sunlight, as the dominate color.!! You nor the client will be aware of this, until the finished piece is placed directly in the sunlight or indirect sun where part of the furnishing is being viewed in indoor lighting, such as incandescent, or florescent, etc., for example kitchen cabinets where the fronts of the cabinets are being viewed in interior lighting, but the side of the cabinets are being viewed with the sunlight shining directly on them, also large pieces, like pianos where part of the piano case and top receives direct sunlight during the day, while the rest is never in direct sunlight, which over time, ( which can be either quickly or slowly, ) ....will drastically fade the finish with direct exposure..!! This is even worse when
When the finisher has to then try to rectify the problem and depending on the wood can be difficult to critical as to resolving this problem..! Best to "" ALWAYS"".. make your clients aware of this happening, both verbally and in writing, so that they can place these items away from the source that creates them..!!
Now as to using a layering wet on damp method of tinting or shading, which is something I developed back in the sixties, which is the only way to make sure that the filter layer does not occur, is to do this, keeping in mind that the time and labor will be increased accordingly, at to how many colors are applied by gun, one directly on top of the other.!!
Ex: ...Say your looking for a medium color brown on Maple, or other light whitish colored wood or veneer. You can either mix some yellow, red, and walnut crystals (WC) together starting with the lighter colored dyes first to create orange, then adding the WC to darken or brown the mix. or....you can first spray the yellow dye on thin( color wise), and wet, allow to surface dry, not dry through, then apply the thunder red over it, doing the same way and time and then the more darkened heavier walnut crystals lastly. When you sample this method, you will see, after clear coating the sample(s), the difference in the end visual affect the two methods have, which is very distinguished comparably, especially on hardwoods like walnut, cherry, mahogany, that are highly figured.!
With that I will leave it up to you to pursue these things or not. Always remember that color in and of itself is something that can not be pinned down by objectional means, like science or instrumentation, only by the individual, which varies even among certified color experts.!! My so called medium brown walnut dye or stain, is not going to fit your visual senses of what "you" consider to be a perfect example you deem to be the same, which if you have ever purchased house paint, where there are several leading Mfg. Paint companies, offerings, none of their say apple green or red match each other.! Same is true with all color because different dyes and pigments are not universally used throughout the industry.
One Last recommendation, as to pigments, I was just getting into ink printing pigments, where the size of the pigments were being ground so finely, almost to single micron size, that they actually did penetrate the wood and not just lay on top of it. Unfortunately, they were making them from synthetic pigments and were not offering them in natural earth pigments, but if you search for these locally or near by and can get them you might want to give them a try, aka... Also know as printing inks for computer printers etc.
If you have any further questions, about any upcoming client projects, feel free to contact me.
Chemmy
12/15/24 #7: Color Matching with a limited selec ...
When I worked in the States as a cabinet maker we were often pushed so hard that once the piece left my bench I never saw it again. So all the magic that your writing about happened in another portion of the building or even in another building entirely. It wasn't until about 20 years ago that I even started finishing my own work. Given that I'm more familiar with oil work my first project will be too create that personal color wheel you advised. When I complete it I'll do that same with dyes. Funny you mention Calli, I called Campbell (in NorCal) home for a decade before moving over to Vegas, where I set up my own shop to cater to the Casino trade. I stopped building boxes and transitioned into commercial tables and chairs for their restaurants, apolstered work (the frames) and repair before moving over here.
It's a very different market than either the Bay Area or Vegas. The pace is slower and the clients more appreciative of decent craftsmanship. Thanks again Chemmey for sharing your insight and deep knowledge.
12/15/24 #8: Color Matching with a limited selec ...
Hmm...May I ask what made you relocate to New Zealand..??
I almost moved to the Philippines back in 2010, but after talking to some honest ex pats, I decided against it, plus I'm not that fond of real hot weather, and when Jon, told me that there was only 2 temperatures there... Very hot, and hotter, I changed my mind.
I spent most of my finishing career in South Florida which was hot most of the year and very humid in the summer fall months especially.! But after the first couple of years, I adapted to it, and put up with it because of the financial benifits and work environment.
At age 79, I know I could never stand the high temps and humidity again (long term).. I have lived in Knoxville Tennessee since 2011, And find the climate very satisfactory, doesn't get to hot or cold for me to bare. If you ever get to the US again let me know, maybe we can meet.!!
Chemmy (SAM)
12/16/24 #9: Color Matching with a limited selec ...
Can you get shellac flakes/denatured alcohol? That would go a long way to a classic finish from ur photo.
Make a connection with a local commercial paint store or auto finishing outlet for raw pigments. Toning w/WB or solvent based pigments can approximate classic finishes with practice. Less is always more.
BTW the powdered dye stains unless they're metalized are worthless to fading from UV exposure. Been there done that. You could use local WB dye/stains to raw wood then tone w/pigmented coating to stabilize and enhance the look. Sampling is your friend.
My2cts
Cheers Bart
12/16/24 #10: Color Matching with a limited selec ...
You may want to look into the dyes from WD lockwood. I use the water based but they also carry oil and alcohol. Im not sure if they ship internationally or not.
12/16/24 #11: Color Matching with a limited selec ...
Maybe you could talk with this paint company Resene and ask them if you could buy water based pigment concentrates, the one they use to match their wall paint.
With those pigmens you can get a large number of furniture colors. Maybe they have some WB wood finishing, and you can create a full WB finishing schedule.
I had done something like this in the past with good results.
Good Luck!
12/16/24 #12: Color Matching with a limited selec ...
Thanks to all for contributing, there are some very good ideas here. I will look into all of them. NZ is a small country with a small population and 5000 miles from anywhere. So it a small market with high transportation costs and strict regulations on chemical imports. The government is trying to phaise out high VOC products. Eventually I will have to adapt to the new materials. But when a classic piece comes into the shop I feel an obligation to use similar materials in the repairs.
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