Message Thread:
Sketchup to Xilog Maestro
11/6/15
We are producing solid Oak furniture on custom demand of our customers.
Bathroom, Kitchens, Television furniture, dining rooms, living rooms, ...
Currently we are with 20 workers, and we are looking into buying a cnc.
We are thinking of buying the SCM Z1 pro 31
At this moment we are doing all of our drawings with sketchup.
Now what i'm wondering about is it possible to load the sketchup drawing into the Xilog Maestro and then specify all the joints we would like to use?
dowell's, where to cut, where to drill holes, dovetails, ...
or what program would you suggest?
which is fairly easy to draw with + not to expensive. the cnc itself is already a huge investment for us.
Remember that everything is solid wood, so a cabinet drawing program is not of use to us.
It needs to be fast to draw the program, needs to be able to give a cutlist + transport to cnc with fast changes.
To have an idea of what we are doing.
www.Cocoon-interior.be
11/7/15 #2: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
My experience with Xilog Maestro has not been good. It is very primitive and cumbersome. It doesn't play well with itself, let alone with other software.
My advice would be to find the very best software available, and then find the machine that works with it. My main problem with SCM has been external software integration. I have a Pratix S.
After extensive research, I believe that there is nothing out there as good as Homag, which runs on Woodwop. Almost every external software available has a post for MPR, which incidentally, is uniform for all Homag machines. SCM changes the syntax from machine to machine, so what was good yesterday is no good today, and who knows about tomorrow.
Bottom line, the user interface is in my opinion more important than the machine itself, and you should not skimp on software. Homag uses Wood Cad Cam and other softwares that can do just about anything. And, no, I am not a salesman for Homag.
Best of luck.
Benjamin.
11/8/15 #3: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
I agree with Benjamin on this. We have Weeke's which run on WoodWop also. We run Microvellum and VcarvePro in the office, both of which can post directly to the machine. The beauty of WoodWop is it's right at the controller. If we need a quick program, we can write it right on the shop floor in just a few minutes, versus going back in the office to write it. And the program can be parametric without much more effort. We can even tweak the code coming from the other programs easily right at the machine.
11/8/15 #4: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
The pratix comes with a handheld console at the machine that downloads programs from your office PC. If you need to resurface the spoilboard on the fly, all your programs have to redone at the office and then downloaded again to the console to account for the new BZ offset value. This takes time because our programs coming from CV are in xxl format, and you use the win-xiso converter to get .pgm files and then .iso files. So it can take 5-15 minutes of programming time until you are running again after a spoilboard skim. There is no way round this that I know of. You could perhaps pre-plan the SB skims every 15-20 sheets, and then prepare the iso files in separate folders ready to be downloaded. But if you need to change a tool on the fly, then all your .iso files are useless again, because the tool length and other tool info is embedded in the .iso file.
Another point:
If there is an issue mid-cycle and you have to stop the program (e.g. someone accidentally touches the safety bumper), you have no option (that I am aware of) to restart the program from the point you stopped at, you must redrill and reroute everything from the beginning.
I surmise that if the best SCM operator in the world would race the average Joe on a Weeke, the Weeke would do the same 10 kitchens in half the time (perhaps a little exaggerated).
I know I am being hard on SCM here, and I am a self admitted perfectionist, but casual remarks by a Weeke user about how quick and easy their interface is, simply do not sink into people's brains unless you have felt on your flesh what it's like not to have those features and functions Weeke/Homag users take for granted.
Again, I do not sell Weeke/Homag. I make kitchens.
If I am missing something here, SCM users please speak up and help out! Thanks!
11/8/15 #5: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
I can tell you from experience that you can import from Sketchup however because its a graphics program it does not see things like curves the same as a true CadCam program will. I currently have to go from Sketchup to Bobcad CadCam to clean up then to my current machines. However if you are able to get a proper DXF to your controller software (which you can with most modern versions of cnc software) it should be able to translate that into usable machine code
11/9/15 #6: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
Website: http://www.cadcam-softcz.cz
Hello,
i have experience with both of machine (Homag and SCM). I worked as a service technician for woodworking machine. From experience i can tel that work with wood wop is more friendly that work with xilog, but if you use some some Cad/Cam software (Alphacam, Top solid ....) you do not need solve which software is in a machine and all programming you create "offline" .
11/15/15 #7: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
Benjamin,
I'm an contract CNC technician that installs CNC routers and trains customers on various software programs. Admittedly, I do most of my work for SCM, but I do work on other brands from time to time.
I'm a little confused about why you think it's required to go to the office to resend programs to be converted to ISO again. And why it takes you five minutes to go from program to program. All of this can be done at the machine and you can dump an existing program on the hand held, download a new program and then execute in less than 30 seconds.
Also, if you have an program that gets interrupted mid cycle, it's pretty darn east to resume the program close to where you left off.
The grass in not greener on the other side and with a little more training you will realize that the system you have is a pretty user friendly package.
Cheers!
11/15/15 #8: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
I forgot to address this as well. Not sure what you are referring to about SCM changing their syntax all the time???? I just installed a 2015 machine at shop in Minnesota and they had an old CNC (1999) and the code was EXACTLY the same except for the work zone and this was solved with one click of the mouse. For me as an independent tech, the beauty of working on the HUGE range of machines that The SCM Group offers throughout their range, is that the software systems and code is nearly identical from top to bottom.
11/16/15 #10: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
Hi Zak,
This was exactly the response I was trying to elicit!
My problem has been bad or non existent training from the get go.
By "the synax varying from machine to machine" I mean Z positive/negative, zero at front or rear of machine, xxl, pgm, or iso controls are machine specific. (Cyflex also has different code for borings I believe). I am no programmer, I am a simple CNC user, but I can tell you that good software companies such as Mozaik and Polyboard could not even get my machine to work, and Enroute and Cabinet Vision fumbled around a good deal before they got it right. Every one of these softwares has already posted to other SCM machines, so what was their problem?! I only realised the other week that my Xilog settings for mirroring in X/Y were set wrong from the get-go, and this was part of the trouble, because my CV post had to be flipped upside down to counteract the mirroring. Not sure if you get what I am saying, but most of this could have been avoided by a knowledgeable techi like yourself (I bought my machine new, and reached out to SCM when my dealer didn't know what to do. They helped out a little via Teamviewer but sent me back to the dealer for training, which they had not a clue about.)
Anyway, what I mean about having to go back to the office is this: If you want to download one solitary program to the machine, you are correct that it only takes 30 seconds to run the XXL file through WinXizo at the PC and download to the handheld console, get into Auto mode and press Start. But what if you want to run a list of 20 sheets for a kitchen and download them as a list (using a mix file) so as to avoid ping-ponging between the PC and the console and pressing all those buttons all the time?
You need to wait for WinXizo to do its job and that takes longer because there are more files (I admit a faster PC would help!).
OK, so, you finally have your list of 20 sheets downloaded on the console in .ISO and you are good to go. But what happens if:
1. You want to resurface the spoilboard after sheet 4 or 5?
2. You need to replace a bit?
3. You need to quickly cut something else in the middle of the list of files and then go back to cutting the kitchen?
4. Your program is interrupted mid cycle as I described before? The handheld console gives no indication of where exactly in the program it was interrupted.
In all the above cenarios you have to create a new mix file so you are able to download a list to the console, you have to wait for WinXizo to flip the XXLs to PGM and then again to ISO all over again (because if you changed a tool for example your .def tool file is different, or if you redo the SB the BX value changed and all your ISO files are wrong, as described.)
All this takes time, and in my setup I do not want to give my operator such complicated and delicate responsibility. His job is to lugg sheet wood.
Let me not mention the fact that if you dare download a program by a name longer than 25 characters, the control goes into spasm and requests "axis information." You have to reset it completely (I learnt that the hard way and waited 36 hours for SCM to correct it remotely via Teamviewer. My vendor had not the foggiest what I was talking about).
I know for a fact that none of this applies to Weeke/Homag. The MPR files are standard for all machines, and do not contain tool database info (such as tool length) or spoilboard info. This means I could process MPR files with any Weeke without knowing anything about the machine situation. There is no file handling when you get to the machine, just download and go.
This has been my experience, but I welcome someone such as yourself telling me; "Benjamin, the problem is not your machine, it's YOU!"
Can I suggest we touch base via email please, because if all my issues are solely because of ignorance, I would be more than happy to pay you for your time and help me see the light?!
Here's my email:
thekitchenconnection@gmail.com
Thanks in advance!
11/16/15 #11: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
Benjamin and Zak- We just bought a 1 year old Pratix S, and we are slowly getting set up. I am hanging on every word you say! I will say that we have scheduled a SCM tech to set up the machine, and show us how to run it, and then we will have software integration with a Cabnetware tech to get screen to machine running, and our building parameters set up. After we are able to build cabinets we will look at Alphacam, and look to other uses for the machine.
11/17/15 #12: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
In the United States, all the Pratix S machines are sold with a pc connected directly to the machine. The transfer of programs is accomplished with a U.S. written utility program that translates all pgm files to iso files and also controls the spoil board thickness. Also, SCM in the US does not support Maestro yet. AlphaCAM is used as a stand alone CADCAM. As Zac pointed out the implementation is quite easy. Integrating the software from AlphaCAM, CV, CW, Mosaic, and others is very straightforward as well. The posts are already written, and SCM has a department dedicated to software support. As far as code being different, yes and no. The syntax is the same, but different machines need different consideration. So many times custom macros are used (the cyflex does not need to unload parts, and a nesting machine never needs to machine under a part). But for the most part they are the same. G0, G1, G2, G3, B, BO, and N are the same, but conform to the axes setup of the machine. Hence +Z and -Z etc.
11/18/15 #13: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
Hi Rob,
My vendor intially told me (in 2013) I should supply my own PC as SCM's official PC on the stand with their logo is just a dressed up version of any PC with Xilog installed. I asked the guy again a couple of weeks ago if things could be easier if I would invest in SCM's own PC stand? He said "no."
I am very interested in the "US written utility program" you mention. I would be extremely grateful if you could post a video (Jing or live) showing the process of how it works.
You mention pgm to iso. My posts (CV and Enroute) are in xxl, so I convert to pgm and then to iso. Perhaps a pgm post would save one step in the process? (The reason I asked for xxl is because pgm is binary and you can't open it in notepad to check over or edit. I believe Xilog can open, view and edit pgm no problem, but my vendor only uses Maestro and never even showed me how to open Xilog. (Maestro although richer in cad functions, is not good on the file handling. It saves cad files as .pgmx, different to pgm, and I don't think Xilog can open them. I am kind of groping around and finding my way in the dark by trial and error, so you guys in the US are a breath of fresh air!
Lastly, you say SCM has a software development department. I reached out to them a number of times and offered payment to integrate Mozaik and Polyboard (Roger Taylor of Mozaik and Jade Hatem of Polyboard also contacted SCM independently, upon my request, but both reached a dead end.) So I am very interested in knowing exactly who your contacts are at SCM's software department.
Thanks very much indeed!
11/18/15 #14: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
Another question:
My Pratix S requires manual lubrication. The user's guide tells you to grease A after 8 hours, B after 20 hours, C after 60 hours, D after 200 hours, but there is no internal timer that keeps track of the total accumulated machining times. (At least that is what I was told.) It's totally impractical to keep a log book. Rob and Zak, is this something you can shed light on please?
11/18/15 #15: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
You can connect your PC to the kvara via ethernet cable. The instructions on how to do this are in the Operations Manual. It uses a specific ip address, and filezilla server, this allows you to drop files in a specific folder and pick them up at the hand held. pgm2iso (US only) utility will convert xxl, and pgm files to iso, it also allows editing of the code. I think if you look in the manual it also shows the Maestro iso files sent to the same folder will work as well. The best thing to do is call SCM NA at 770-813-7893 and ask for Applied Technologies. They are responsible for software, they may sell you a copy. As for the Lubrication, the machine keeps track of the time of axis movement and will display a lubrication alarm. Then you need to slowly pump the grease until you see the graphite rod on the distribution block (cover by a white tube) go in and out 7 times. After you need to push the // reset on the handheld (not on red panel) then the message goes away until next lubrication. This and the manual lubrication points on the machine are shown also in the manual.
11/25/15 #16: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
Thanks for that info Rob.
I sent SCM NA an inquiry via the "contact us" form on the website. It's been a week and I haven't heard from them yet. I believe I am out of their jurisdiction so they are not replying but I have nothing to lose by waiting or picking up the phone if no response is forthcoming. (I had called SCM UK once and they promply told me they couldn't speak to me for that reason.)
BTW, I also called SCM Italy (the manufacturer) today regarding a simple question about which I have been in touch with them via email for months already, and they also told me "all inquiries must be channelled via your local vendor." So I called him about my question and I hope they will have an answer.
In case anyone on this forum knows the solution, this was my question:
As said, I have a Pratix S, with a rake.
What happens is that every time the rake engages, it first drops off the tool in the rack and then pushes with an empty spindle. This is undesireable for a number of reasons:
1. It is unnecessary to drop off the tool, so why prolong the machining cycle and subject the machine to extra wear and tear after every single program?
2. Working with no tool in the spindle is asking for trouble as dust can get inside.
For the last 2 years I didn't know any better so I just worked that way in good faith. But then I saw a video of my exact same CNC, and lo and behold, the tool happliy stays in the main spindle while Punloading!
Watch it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=156&v=G3s9iK4NyOU
So I asked the service department a couple of months ago about this and we have had a very slow back and forth since then. They wanted to see my def.tlg file to make sure my tools are not too long (between 80-120 mm, which is very safe). They said they would sort it out, but have not replied to my frequent reminders. So I called them by phone today and was told I cannot get direct service. They didn't even offer a paid support subscription.
So I will wait some more and hope someone (not sure whom at this point) deems it appropriate to give me (a paying customer) service and answers to basic questions.
11/25/15 #17: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
hi binyamin i think you chose wrong machine
as i understand yours machine is only unload and in the attach video you can see that is as you said unload the tool before clean the table and start drilling with empty spindle(strange ,why not take the tool before drill?)
YouTube video
11/26/15 #18: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
Hi Yaacov,
You are right in your observation, but essentially there is no reason for this difference. But the main CNC model is the same, and there is no danger of collisions. As said, SCM has told me they can and will make the change for me, they are just not answering my emails for some reason.
12/16/15 #19: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
For anyone thinking about purchasing a SCM Router, especially one with a handheld remote. I would strongly recommend you read through my other post:
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/cnc.pl?rev=788641
1/31/16 #20: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
Hi Yaacov,
SCM finally answered my question above about dropping off the tool when engaging the rake. It took them around ten minutes on Teamviewer to fix it on my machine as it operates in the you tube video of a similar machine. I'm really happy about this at long last!
7/15/19 #21: Sketchup to Xilog Maestro ...
I found a way to convert multiple XXL files to PGMX at one time for anyone using Xilog Maestro. anyone who is interested please contact us.
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