I hope this is the right place to post this. I work in a shop where the foreman uses the "Buddy System" when it comes to overtime. His buddies get it and no one else does. I've mentioned it to him before that I notice that that is the way it seems to be and he dismisses it and say that some jobs get over time and some don't............oh well, so talking to him about it is not really an option. The only option I see is to move on and go elsewhere. Anyone else have an opinion?

We do OT based on project, so tomorrow might be cutting OT, Monday will be edging and machining OT, Tuesday and Wednesday will be assembly OT; Thursday will be delivery OT; Friday will be install OT.

So different days, different people based on which department they are in or if we are backed up on a bunch of jobs, everyone works OT.

We like to try and run 5 x 9 so we pick up more work out the door.

OT should be a function of which area or department is behind or a schedule moving.

It doesn't matter who the foreman likes its different guys different days or everybody all days.

We gotta be so backwards up the creek screwed before I'll do any significant over time.

I have yet to see an employee work 50% faster on OT. Unless you're at the risk of hosing a business relationship, I don't think it's worth the cost. That's business side.

When I worked for another shop though, I usually was putting in 15 hours of OT each week, and working on side jobs another 10-20 hours a week. But that was in my 20's. I still work 3000+ hours a year, but it's much more varied. I'd fall over dead working at the pace and quantity I did 15 years ago.

Educate yourself! You can easily get smarter and more knowledgeable than the other guys.

Make it so you are so good, you can’t be overlooked. Then, either the foreman starts selecting you for OT, or will see you leave for a place that is more appreciative of your abilities. If you are a solid, dependable employee, there are shops that will gladly sign you on.

Mauricio
My opinion would become work for me, I'll give you all the overtime you want !
If you have enough sense to post on Woodweb,you've got a brain.
We are a 4-man shop and I'd be lucky if I can get an hour extra overtime a week out of my crew.
They are highly paid, great guys,work hard in those 40 hours.
I pay time and a half and Dangle extra 100 dollar bills in front of them.
Can't get them to do it.

Maybe it's my sarcasm seething out because I had a turn down 200k worth of work this summer.
I get told I should schedule the workload better-My wife & the guys- so I(myself) don't have to work so hard..HA HA...
Yep - I remember not working hard at all in the 3 Recessions (40 years) I have been doing this...

I am here today on a Saturday cutting up 10 sheets of Melamine ($500 Material) into a 4K quickie 1 day rush job
My one guy I asked is $25 hr. X .5 = $37.50 X 8 =$300.00 + 100 cash! NO Takers....
My installer, had 4- 10 hour days this week. Ok - No problem ,you got your 40 hours in... But
Took off on Friday,could've worked 6-11 ?....
Even though we're only a third of the way through the job. And he's on an air conditioned site!!...

Sorry for the rant-It,s Hot today here in NJ.
My next post will be on the Job Opportunities Exchange.
Maybe guys like Maurico will respond..or PM me..

TomC,
If you turned down 200k of work and want to constantly work long weeks, isn't it past time to hire more employees?

Karl,
There is the theory that if a worker gets a certain amount of hours of real production time in a day and part of that time that is not real production is getting set up, tools selected, receiving instructions from the foreman, walking to the bathroom etc. then spreading the non productive time over more productive hours reduces actual total costs.

If you amortize your setup times and other times over 9 hours instead of 8 you are getting more production. More production leads to more sales and that reduces fixed overhead cost per hour.

If your edgebander takes 15 minutes to warm up and you start running parts after lunch its like saving 15 minutes if you run the parts for another hour and don't need to fire it up with the same color thickness tomorrow.

There are a lot of other calculations that need to be considered when looking at overtime.

Wc is not billed at 1.5 so that insurance is less, the rent or mortgage or machine payment is the same per month, you reduce your internal shop rate by spreading it across more hours in the same time period.

Then of course when projects are behind because the GC or owner delay the project but they need to have you speed up they pay for the OT

We choose to look at more than the direct cost. For me, every decision needs to be more than just what is the direct cost

Rich C
I don,t really want to work long weekends.
As we all know , there is lots of unskilled help out there, trying to find that one extra skilled guy is like a needle in a hay stack..
As Owner, I am somewhat forced to with the workload, Like Karl,I to put in those 52-60 hr weeks. It's what I signed up for.
The last quarter ,April ,May ,June (13 weeks),my 3 main shop guys had a total of 57 hours overtime.
That's just 4.25 hours overtime a week for 3 guys,
I would not be in the position I am in if I got 5 hrs a week each from them !.
Am I asking to much of them, Please tell me? I would not want to overwork them...
PS: I have a very well equipped 5K sq.ft.shop in a building I own.
Not a dungeon...

I think it depends on your overall relationship with your foreman, if this is your only problem in relationship is worth talking it through some more, go with facts and figures to prove your point, if you have other problems then look for another job and move on.

If you can't beat them, join them.

Are you absolutely certain that speaking to your foreman again isn't an option? Rather implying that he is playing favorites, which may well just irk him, try saying something along the lines of "Hey, I am pretty strapped for cash right now, is it okay if I ask the guys who are working overtime if they could use a hand?" This would make it a mutually beneficial proposition rather than an accusation, and putting the decision in the hands of your co-workers ought to remove any stigma or strained relations with your boss out of the equation.

It happened again..........this is the third Saturday in a row "The Buddies" get to work.........I asked dickhead if I could work tomorrow as well and the reply was...."Oh, man, parts aren't ready, otherwise I'd absolutely have you work, thanks buddy"

The words you chose to describe your foreman is indicative of an attitude in an individual I would not desire to spend much time with let alone any overtime. Your words are representative of the disdain you have toward your foreman.

I'm with Thomas on this one. Your response and perceived attitude speak volumes.

So, I'm supposed to think he's the coolest guy ever by refusing to let me work overtime?...you make no sense.

How old are you?

Good question Karl

Maybe Mauricio would be happier elsewhere?

Or he could get a side gig.

I would send him to my competitor, with a hearty endorsement.

I have sent them down the road with a check and an enthusiastic back slap: "We know you are not happy here, and we want to help. We are sure you will be happier elsewhere, and we want to do what we can to get you there. Goodbye, and good luck."

Move quickly enough, and they are out the door trying to figure out what happened before they have time to protest.

Mauricio, It seems you answered your first post by yourself from what you have experienced.
Move to another shop where you can make yourself happy and be appreciated, no doubt the situation isn't going to change.
Life is to valuable to grind over a bad situation ----Move on.

To the Original Poster: You can make the current job be of value to you by learning your trade well enough to leave and compete against your boss. In the process, you will probably be promoted as you become capable in all areas of the business. You can't wait for stuff like overtime to be handed to you, you need to find out what it takes to be an essential employee.

Hate to play the devils advocate but I think we all know of, have seen, or maybe even been a part of an operation where "games" are played and there is enough going on that upper management doesnt care. Whether it be being part of a family business (perhaps the worst possible scenario to get involved in) or an operation where the front office is perfectly fine with letting a maybe less than stellar manager run the show out back or in the field as long has the hear no, or maybe even a little, flack.

I agree to start looking for another shop if you really have issues with the management. Do your job to the highest level while you look. Dont fall into the trap of harboring resentment toward your manager and letting it affect your performance or attitude in any way. Always take the high ground. Walk away with a stellar reputation (if your foreman is truly a wad you may get a bad reference anyway).

No one knows the actual situation other than you and your foreman. Maybe the parts really arent ready. Maybe he is a wad. Maybe he is not being a good manager and doesnt see you as a key person he wants around for overtime but he's poor with management and too chicken to just tell you why your not getting the overtime. Who knows. No one is simply "entitled" to overtime.

If you feel your worth the hours and your not getting them make a professional mention of it to his upline management. The sad fact of that situation is going over his head may get you the overtime but land you in a worse position on the floor. Again, poor upper management, but it happens.

Often times when you realize your in a situation you feel is not being run professionally after making a few failed attempts to rectify the situation as painful as it may be its just best to move on.

Easier said than done depending on many factors.

I would be curious how many of the business owners here have been in a situation similar to Mauricio’s, and used that as partial impetus for their own current self-employment. I’m sure none of the upstanding citizenry on this forum ever referred to their former employer or foreman as “richard-head”, especially if they were in need of more money, were willing to work extra hours for it, but see that the gatekeeper for those extra hours gives them to everyone but you.

Mauricio is looking for suggestions, but is also venting, so let him vent, as jumping to the “attitude” conclusion may be hasty, especially if one’s own past behavior in a similar circumstance is considered.

One interesting dynamic of a clique, and that sounds like what we are talking about here, is that those in the clique do not see it as a clique, but just “business as usual”, and are in denial of there being a clique. If that is the case, and that this has been allowed to progress to this level is indicative of either upper management compliance or ignorance, then at least you understand the situation, and can make an informed choice on future employment.

Is there possible xenophobia at play? Does Mauricio not work hard enough during regular hours to deserve overtime? Is it a “buddy system” clique? Has Mauricio done something to anger his foreman? What is Mauricio’s skill level, and is that skill level required in an overtime situation? No way to be certain of any of that.

So Mauricio, if it were me, I would quietly start looking for another job. But not every shop has overtime, and perhaps your shop does not have it all the time. So is it about the money, or is it about something else? If it is truly about money, then you could find additional employment after work, as other shops may have extra work that you could do after hours, or part-time evening work may be available in another field, if it is only about the money. Been there, done that. You can keep the job you have and get extra money from other sources.

However, if a perceived lack of respect enters into the picture, then the possibility of employment elsewhere is in your future. Only you know the answer to that.

Perhaps I have completely misunderstood the situation. If so, I apologize.
TonyF

Mark B & Tony F have is all, in good detail.
We can't know Mauricio's situation in all its details. There are aspects of the situation thatMauricio may not know. With nationalism, racism and fascism back in vogue, any of a hundred prejudices could be affecting the relationship. Things no amount of effort on Mauricio's part could ever change.

If that means the situation will not - can not - change, then Mauricio needs to tune up the resume and put on those walkin' shoes.

Maurico,

People do not change. You've got 2 options when dealing with coworkers. Deal with them or deal with the boss. If you are accurate in your description this guy will get grumpy with you and still not give you ot.

On this Business Forum you are primarily communicating with the bosses. We have all dealt with disgruntled employees with bad attitudes. The other bosses here know that once you bag someone else like you did it's not worth trying to make you happy. Remember people won't change.

I suggest you move on to another workplace if possible.

TonyF, what I said about attitude being connected with our words are true. We can't hide our attitude like we think we can. I do not wish to sound argumentative but, we have all been in Mauricio shoes at one time or another. Bottom line is that everyone who has ever worked for another person has walked the same path. We approach an individual seeking employment. We are told what the pay will be, what the hours will be and what the job will be. We either accept this or decline the offer. If we are happy with what is offered we accept the offer. We, everyone who has held a job, agree to work said job for said hours for said pay. We should expect nothing more than what is agreed.
The fringe benefits are extra. If we are unhappy with the way we perceive our work environment to be "unfair" then we have the option to leave. I have been there and done that, but I did not publicly disrespect my employer. They paid me what I agreed to. The hours were what I agreed to work. The job was as presented. The boss upheld his end of the employment agreement.
If the boss did breech the agreement, verbal or written, then Mauricio has a complaint with the boss. Mauricio can either stay and play or walk...venting publicly is never good. Mauricio, be professional, hold up your end of the bargain, work your best. If you are not happy with current conditions that were not part of the original hiring agreement them move on quietly to another job. Do so quietly and professionally. You will be the better man for doing so.

Thomas:

I totally agree with what you are saying from an employer perspective, as I have on more than one occasion cited the mantra “In a right-to-work state, barring a contract to the contrary, the verbal employment agreement between an employer and an employee is subject to spontaneous termination, without cause, by either party”. I have been on both sides of that mantra. Situations similar to the one being discussed were the impetus for me switching jobs, and eventually forming my own business.

And yes, it is bad form to denigrate your foreman in public, but this forum is not as public as some would like to believe. It gives its users an opportunity to run something up the flagpole, even anonymously, and see what others in similar scenarios would do, or see what kind of feedback they get. It is a great space for business idea exchange for those who use it, but the users of this forum are not the entire industry. Given all of that, the odds that the foreman will read his rant and think it is him are pretty small, and perhaps even approach mathematical certainty.

All that aside, I have come to the conclusion that in Mauricio’s case (if that is his real name), there is something of a clique in place, and that perhaps there is some xenophobia at play. I stated that I may have misunderstood the scenario, and I stand by the possibility of my own ignorance and conclusion-jumping. Would you want this scenario occuring in your place of business, without your knowledge?

Perhaps having nowhere else to turn, Mauricio may have thought that running this by business owners may have given him an understanding of what step to take next, and what a proper approach may be. The overtime is there, but he is not getting any. Fringe benefit or not, he is looking for a sense of fairness in its distribution.

He could certainly have voiced it in a less derogatory manner, but I am trying to not get too caught up in style and trying to focus on the substance of the situation.

For myself, I have called enough employers and foremen richard-heads, and they have called me the same, that I feel that there was some kind of cosmic, symbiotic penile balance in my employment history. We continued the employment relationship, to each other’s mutual benefit, until the animosity could no longer be ignored. Perhaps that is what will happen for Mauricio as well.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that this is about more than just the overtime. If it is an attitude, and I’m not sure exactly when that line is crossed, then he and his foreman can decide how much of it they wish to tolerate. From the viewpoint of a disinterested party the attitude, if there is one, seems to be working both ways in that scenario.

TonyF

**UPDATE**...........it's been a month or so, but one of the guys that wasn't getting overtime complained to management on a Thursday and they laid him off the following Monday.