Any suggestions on insert cutter heads? I have never had one and would like to get into a 50~60mm height set-up. I am working figured woods mostly , fairly hard about .55~.65 density. I have been wondering if I might need three or four knives instead of two. Looking at slacker hook angles 10~12 degree. I would prefer a self aligning knife. Possibly with the two hole pattern. If I could get disposable inserts for my coupe of profiles I would lean that way to cut out the sharpening, shipping etc..... HSS, carbide, I find I get better finishes with HSS though shorter life. I will be doing fairly short runs of 200~400 feet to a time. Deepest part of the cut might be 1/4".
If just a corrugated knife what is the typical way to set heights?
Any preference of steel heads over aluminum?
It's a pretty bigger shaper so thinking it will handle a larger diamter head if I can get a better finish that way. Looking for minimal sanding and tear out.
Also, anyone know where there may be a helical flush/planer head but with a nicker for rabate cuts?
Thanks for any leads.
From contributor Da
Chuck Rankin posts in here every now and then. he knows his way around and can supply/advise what you need.
I also like Charles G G Schmidt.
Both are reliable and knowledgeable.
From contributor Br
Check out amana for the palner head. I have two. They are four blade sheer cut insert heads with 2 15x15 mil inserts on the top and bottom for rebates. They give a superior cut quality, better then some of my staggered tooth spiral insert heads.
If your running heavy profiles over 1.5'' tall and .5 depth of cut go with steel heads.
Aluminum works well for surfacing heads but when heavy stock removal is required it is prone to chatter.
You may be able to find some standard profiles for an amana head.
Typically carbide insert profile heads are meant to produce only one type of profile.
The cut may be slightly varied. They do this with raised panels cutters and the inserts. Multiple profiles on one head due to similar size shape and patterns.
If you go with a typical corrugated head you can get 2 knife and 4 knife in a standard 4'' diameter steel head. Go with the 4 knife. You may never need the 4 blades but if you do you will have it ready to go. 2 knives are fine for just about all profiles. Four knives allows you to run stock at higher speeds and still get the same cuts per inch. CPI is very important when talking about profile cutters, carbide etc.
If you come across a highly figured wood that steel dulls to fast on or just isn't sharp enough for then you can have carbides brazed directly to the profile stock. It's not cheap but it work.
If you find yourself setting up more then one profile every few days invest in a set up stand. For you shaper heads. This will give you a precise point to anchor each one of the knives into the corrugated heads. Don't go off the bottom edge of the knives!!! They are not always cut or set up the same way in the machine.
From contributor Co
Thanks David, Brian.
The set-up stand leaves me wondering why you could not set your indicator on the shaper table and just load the head on the spindle and set the knives there. I am a one man shop so the machine would not be running while I would be setting up a head with knives. You would think this might even be more accurate since the knives would be set in the machine?
From contributor Br
Running it through in my head I can't see why it wouldn't work. The only thing you should check before using this approach or running larger heads for that matter is the spindle run-out.
To install the cutters in the way your proposing you would need the spindle cranked up to it's highest point. This would give you the access needed to tighten the gibs or the like. If your machine has run-out greater then factory spec the cutter placement could vary. Once you drop the head down to it's cutting position it could also change the placement and the run-out. It depends on how your spindle is mounted in your machine etc.
Check the run-out with a dial indicator placed on the table touching the spindle and see what the difference is from one side to the other. Mark each side with a sharpy. Check this at multiple points in the spindle height to make sure the run-out is the same at the max and min spindle protrusion.
If the run-out is the same or close then I don't think you will encounter any problems setting your cutters this way.
From contributor Co
Thanks Brian,
I called Schmidt today. They said their knives are within a couple thou .
I was told I could simply set the head on a surface and reference the knives on the same surface.
I queried if the knives were ground referencing the top or bottom edge of the knife but seemed to add confusion to the conversation. The sales rep just repeated that the knives were ground to high tolerances.
Not a pressing issue as I do not have the head in hand right now any way. I like to hear the thoughts of you guys willing to share to get a jump on the game and reduce the learning curve.
I am inclined to try the HSS first as Ii get great finishes with my tersa heads in my jointer and thicknesser. I do small runs so maybe that will be o.k. if I get two sets of knives. Do you find a difference in finish quality like in a planer with shaper knives regarding carbide or HSS?
From contributor Da
Correy - Regarding the two knives and setting them accurately also reverts to your query about 4 knives vs 2.
With almost all the type equipment we are talking about a two knife head is adequate since even with the best knives, ground in the head, only one will create the finish. Count your KCPI by means of some carbon paper and you will see that only one knife makes the finish surface. The other one (or 3) is working - cutting material, but is not making thew surface.
I once tried to get all four knives on a Weinig cutting - using their grinder and a new molder, so we could increase feed rates. While it can be done, it is not practical. Way too much time and too easy to loose. For few minutes, 75 l/f per min was pretty cool....
From contributor Ru
Below is an article about knife marks per inch, you would need a hydro head and remove the bore tolerance in the cutter head, then you would have to run a jointing stone into the knives to obtain a perfect cutting circle to run at higher speeds. I hope this helps you obtain a better understanding about the knife marks,
From contributor Je
A couple quick thoughts….
I highly recommend getting yourself a Euro block head with at least a handful of knives. They are certainly not going to do everything you need, but I find them indispensable for having flexibility in running smaller jobs. I like the steel heads for the mass, though I haven't found any problems running the aluminum either. The bonus is the steel is very thin so you can "modify" them to suit your needs.
Then you'll probably want a corrugated head to do any custom profiles you may need. I mount the knives in the head and then lock the head down on the spindle. I'll leave one knife a bit high and loose on the head and use my dial indicator with a magnetic base mounted to the shaper table. Then I'll get the 2 profiles dead on referencing some part of the profile, not the top or bottom of knife. The guys who do my knives are pretty good, but I find this works better for me than just bottoming out on the table.
As far as carbide vs steel, they both work really well. I do find steel leaves a nicer finish when sharp and as most of my runs are pretty small that's what I use predominantly. Carbide backed knives are pretty expensive, so usually not worth the money for doing short runs of several hundred feet IMO. I use carbide for more abrasive things like panel raising mdf for instance. Any work in mdf will kill HSS in very short time so you really need the carbide. I think for figured woods your best bet is going to be good sharp HSS tooling. I think M2 is the steel I use which provides a pretty good run life.
As far as your shaper goes, it's not so much the size of the machine as it is the quality of it and the size of the bearings. Generally speaking larger machines will likely be better quality than small ones, but there's a lot of import stuff out there that's not so great as well. If your buying 1-1/4" tooling the diameters are already determined and are large enough to get very clean profiles. A small shaper like a Powermatic 27 can handle a 2" corrugated head just fine. What the bigger shapers will provide is a smoother cut and more hp for heavier cuts.
good luck,
JeffD
From contributor Co
Would a three knife head at 20 degrees work as well in hard or figured wood as a 10 degree two knife?
Jeff, when you say euro head do you mean like a Stark or gladu, lueco etc.?
With feeders, if your running narrow stock is there thought to using a narrower wheel not to wear one half of a wider wheel prematurely?
Thanks.
From contributor Da
You can run a narrow, or previously "altered" wheel in the center, or have 2 wheels in front of and one after the cutters, or remove a wheel, or - best - use a 4 wheel feeder.
By "altered" I mean that has been hit by cutters in previous operations. The hubs are aluminum, and a wheel will survive a hit by cutters. Not recommended, but a reality all the same.
From contributor Je
I know Amana still makes them I don't know if the companies you listed do? I have FS Tool and a Freud heads both of which are a slightly larger diameter than the Amana, but not sure if either of those companies still makes them either?
good luck,
JeffD
From contributor Co
Hey Jeff, I guess the "euro head" is one that has the inserted limiter.
Unsure if I will go that route.
How about gibs, chip deflection and such?
I was talking with one fellow today about quality of corrugated heads from one US co. to another and didn't seem much difference except for finish details and gibs.
He said that one Co.'s gibs where shaped better for directing chips but I am unsure how effective that may be when running a profile other than straight where the gib may be substantially further away from the cutting edge.
From contributor Je
Hi Correy, sorry but your above my pay grade now. I use CG Schmidt corrugated heads and they work fine. I have no idea if other heads have better or worse chip deflection???
As far as the Euro heads they're fantastic and they do offer a lot of flexibility. If your looking for a single head that's going to do everything though, your going to be disappointed. I have a couple Euro heads, and several corrugated heads and they all get used and have their advantages. The more varied the work you do the more weapons you'll want in your arsenal.
good luck,
JeffD
From contributor Co
what height profiles are you running in the euro block?
From contributor Je
The height is metric and I can't remember what it is off the top of my head? Somewhere in the neighborhood of 1-1/2"- 2" though.
Jeffd
From contributor Br
Hi Correy, the closest thing you'll find to a "do everything" head is the combi head Whitehill makes. In one head you get a shear cut rebate block with knickers, limiter head, and with a stub arbour on the shaper you can use it as a tennoner by running stock over the head. You can use it to scribe the shoulders too if you want. It's a steal of a deal if you're not a huge high production shop. They come in two sizes. I did a little video them but I'm not much of a videographer!
