Question
Alright, I want unbiased opinions from door builders on CNC versus conventional shaper/moulders/tenoner. I don't want you swearing CNC is the best because you plunked down 200K on the latest greatest machine, just honest remarks if you feel it has improved production, quality, or maybe even both. Or do you regret it?
Here’s where I'm at; we have a flat table router we use for cutting panels, templates and we do jambs on it sometimes. We also bevel our doors on it. We don't bore the door or do the hinges on the router. All our cope and stick we do on conventional shapers along with shaping arched top rails against patterns. We raise all our panels on a shaper. I have watched all the videos and read all the literature and still can't decide if there is an advantage to CNC.
Forum Responses
(Architectural Woodworking Forum)
From contributor Y:
I have a flat table also, but since I do custom doors programming becomes a pain in the butt. I know there is software that can handle it but the part libraries can become quite large to set up. To add a new custom door to it might take more time than it’s worth. To get an exact order for that same door is and has not happened. I do all the template work on router the rest by conventional means.
Making the actual part takes about the same amount of time. I program in Masterwork and in Alphacam. Takes about 15 minutes to program most custom doors, but I'm not ashamed to say I'm really, really good at it too. I've been to software demos at Biesse and at Stiles, and left laughing at how difficult it was to program compared to what I'm using. Then again, that is a biased perspective. Maybe if I'd learned Biesseworks first I'd think differently - maybe not. If you can't draw an arc and an offset of it in fewer than five minutes and you are the teacher then something is very wrong.
CNC saves huge time for complicated lock mortises, as some companies provide dxf files. We also build dozens of windows and sashes a day, which the routers play a small role in. The most doors I've ever produced in a day is around 30-35, a rush order. Pretty long day though, and they were all pretty much the same simple two panel design going all in the same house. Before getting a CNC router I'd get a RF press if you don't already have one. And there is the learning curve. Don't expect to go guns a blazing the first day, or even the first year. I program probably ten times better and faster than when I started. Each year I look back on things and can't believe I was so stupid doing it that "old way."
I have been collared by plaid pants CNC salesmen that tell me to buy their machine or go out of business. Mass customization will take only minutes, and will put me out of business unless I get onto their particular product. What software to use, actual real world experience, and real performance numbers is where their pitch falls apart.
Our shop is skills based and we can build a curve head door and frame as fast as anyone, and with the quality we don't see in other products. Swinging arcs on the bandsaw, curved moldings, full cope and stick mortise and tenon, all equal superior millwork. We also have proprietary design elements that add greatly to the longevity and weatherabiltiy of our work, as well as design details that help our products stand out and build value.
I have tried to work with CNC shops over the years, but can almost never get a price from them, whether it is for carving, curved molds or whatever. Always a sea of variables to affect pricing, and I cannot move forward if I don't know costs. If I'm going to experiment, I'll do it in our shop and gain the craft/skill equity that such open-ended experimentation can provide. Our shop is flexible and fast and even fun. We build doors and work the way we want to - a way that is sustainable and productive and rewarding. We aren't getting rich, but we knew that long before we started.
We can think on our feet and truly enjoy our product and the efforts that go into it. Mutual respect, cooperation and pride are an integral part of our day. Somehow, I think a CNC might corrupt this nice arrangement. While there is nothing inherently wrong about such machines, they just are not needed in our shop - plenty of other neat equipment to lust over.
This is not true across the board, and as we see, the CNC can be a valuable addition to a shop - the core of its machining efforts, as described. I'm sure it is a fine product - that result still goes back to the maker and his or her intentions and integrity. However, I increasingly see people with a CNC that decide to jump on the door bandwagon that know nothing about doors (or even woodworking), their intricacies and details, yet deign to forge ahead with that big digital hammer. Today, the landscape is littered with their efforts in both closed shops and poorly performing products all over the US, though there are success stories, I'm sure.
Pinecrest is one shop I was inspired to be like. They use both manual and CNC machines, and have the skilled staff to operate them. We value skills as well- one of our guys built a good deal of millwork in the king of Thailand's royal palace. Many of those kinds of shops have gone under in the past couple of years as well as those who couldn't afford their new CNC machine payments. Seems only the strong are left standing. But I will say one thing many will agree on- CNC machines are great fun as well.
I will take issue with the word nostalgia when talking about the equipment or even our attitude here. Yeah, I'm a romantic, but somehow I don't care for that term, though I know you meant no disrespect. I am doing today just about exactly the kind of work and doing it the way I like after many years of work. I really love my job, my shop, my coworkers, my customers (well, most of them), and my products. Most of our customers are amazed beyond words. I look forward to spokeshaving a curve, the hum of the shaper with that particular set of knives, the very satisfying thunk of a mortise and tenon pulling tight, and wouldn't trade it for anything.
This is why I do the work we do, and I can't imagine doing anything else. It is passion pure and simple, for better or worse. Passion is what makes it happen for me, the products and entire circle. While that may sound nostalgic, it is not. Passion can also infect that young guy programming a CNC to do things not thought of yet. At least I hope so.
I know my abilities and what I can do, it's the other 25 people working here that are always at question. Although I doubt I will hear it, if someone said a new quarter million dollar Busellato is going to improve your production and quality exponentially, I would feel foolish to not to consider it.
Although I live and work in a resort destination for the rich and famous, whether or not I get the job has never hinged on whether I cut that arch on a bandsaw or a CNC router but that the quality expectations are met and the price is right. That’s just my world, your situation may be different.
In the end I figured to make it pay I would need more orders and more people upstream and downstream of the router to keep parts flowing. In addition I would need to duplicate the 60K of insert tooling I already have. It’s still a possibility for me but a lot of things would have to change with the economy and my shop.
In a 25 man shop your parameters for justifying the cost will be totally different than mine. You need to figure more than the cost of the router. In my case it was about 180K minimum for a door and window machine - about half that for tooling and about half again for software and learning curve, with six months to a year to get it working right.
To make this work you also need the right person to operate and program the machine. You already have a flat table machine so you should be ahead of the curve on this. I did the Homag router tour in Europe, and it’s pretty eye opening to see what these can do when totally optimized with tooling and software. A router is just a tool. No different than a hand plane or a CNC tenoner. Used correctly any of these tools can give pleasure and profit.
I just believe after using this new technology my thinking has changed, and I apply it all over the shop. Super accurate jigs are made on the CNC machine whenever someone needs one. Forty pushsticks can be made in a couple minutes. Playing locksmith with that new multipoint lock to be installed is nearly automatic. Your assemblers are so trusting they never dry-fit anything, and just go full blast. For multiple runs, you can kick back and look at actual machining times, to factor in with other labor.
When you get to the point where you know you can machine perfect parts day after day, you can start cutting corners and look at time savings.
Really machining the parts for doors is not the most labor intensive part, regardless of your path. But after you acquire an arsenal of different approaches, you can pick the best for each task more effectively.
New Busellatto? Maybe start looking at what software is intuitive for your type of machining, and tinker with a demo for a year. If you are still hungry, then dive in and embrace it. The first year I kept jumping off to manual machining out of fear. Gradually I have gone to nearly all CNC cutting. The mitered half laps that Steghers do for 90 degree joints? I now do that for radius TDL intersections. You have to believe in it to make it work.
